SPEAKER_02 0:02

Hello and welcome to Bad Theology Busted, where we challenge the dangerous theology of Christian Zionism in all the places that it hides. This is the podcast of the Institute for the Study of Christian Zionism. My name is Dee, and I'm joined by my co-host and my friend Jesse.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Thanks, Dee. This month we're sitting down with Reverend Gerilyn Henry, Reverend Dr. Christine Pei, and Jessica Sun to talk about the manifestations of Christian Zionism within Asian and Asian American communities. On the one hand, Christian Zionism in Asia is a growing movement that combines a dispensationalist end-times theology with strong support for Israel. Influenced by American evangelicalism, it is prominent in South Korea, China, and the Philippines, often linking Asian national identities with Israel's political interests and biblical prophecy. On the other hand, the Hong Kong-born feminist theologian Dr. Kwok Qui Lan, in a 2024 article for Contending Modernities, explains, In Asia, ethnic minorities and tribal peoples in Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Northeast India, and West Asia have fought against the dispossession of their land, political oppression, and military violence. For many decades, Sri Lankans saw similarities between the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the ethno-nationalist strife between the Sinhalese and the Tamils. During this episode, we will dive deeper into this seemingly contradictory set of realities to gain a clearer understanding of what Christian Zionism looks like in Asian and Asian American communities.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

If you enjoyed the show, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. If you find something of particular interest in our conversation, I welcome you to leave a comment on YouTube or on your listening platform of choice. If you believe in the work our podcast is doing, I invite you to join us and become a contributor at the donation link provided. We'll be back with our guests after the break to discuss what Christian Zionism looks like in Asian and Asian American contexts.

SPEAKER_05 2:22

At the beginning, God created his own image and I think today.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

It centers queer Palestinian identity and experiences, and it's an essential volume that explores the themes of displacement, assimilation, belonging, and love across geographies, from Jerusalem to Ramallah to New York, Beirut, and beyond. Make sure and go check out Interlink Press and get your copy of the Homosexual Intifada. The Reverend Rajathi Gerilyn Henry is Canadian-Indian and received her Master's of Divinity degree from Columbia Theological Seminary in 2018. An Anglican priest with a vibrant TikTok and Instagram presence, Henry was ordained in 2020 in the Anglican Diocese of Toronto, where she serves as the incumbent of the Church of Holy Wisdom. During her postulancy, the training for the priesthood, she worked at Tim Hortons, the famous Canadian coffee chain, and as a packer at an Amazon warehouse and is familiar with being a slave to the wage. Her training includes an undergrad in social work, chaplaincy residency in a low-income hospital, and an internship in the National Council of Churches. Henry serves as an anti-bias, anti-racism facilitator, sits on the Right Relations Committee, and was recently the keynote speaker at the Outreach, Justice, and Advocacy Conference. Gerilyn is also a wife, a woodworker, and a novice baker. So, Reverend Gerilyn, you recently returned from Palestine with a delegation hosted by Sabile. And upon your return, you made a 15-part social media video series talking about some of the most impactful experiences that you had while in the land. For our listeners, can you describe for us what you witnessed in Palestine and how it connects to the ministry that you live out in your own context every day?

SPEAKER_03 6:36

So I had boycotted Israel as a teenager in this like moment of passion when I first heard about the Nakba. And I never questioned that decision. So for the past 15 years, I haven't really consumed that much content from Israel, not images of tourism or foods. I never had any Israeli friends. Jewish friends, yes, but not Israeli. So when I was invited to join the delegation hosted by Seville, I went in kind of blind. And we spent the first few days after we landed in West Jerusalem. And I found myself feeling very disoriented by what I saw. Israel was really pretty. The markets had Palestinian vendors, infrastructure was somewhat familiar. And yes, there were teenagers carrying machine guns in public squares. And yes, there were a lot of posters about October 7th. But I remember telling my group at the end of day one that one of two things was happening. Either like Israel as the structure, the government, isn't as bad as I thought it was, that I hadn't experienced, or I was falling for some sort of propaganda. And it wasn't until we went into East Jerusalem on day three that I realized that the latter was true. That I had committed, though I'd committed myself like over a decade to the liberation of Palestine, I was falling for propaganda within a few days. Palestinian territory is drastically different than Israeli territory, and it's only separated by one eight-meter high wall. But inside East Jerusalem, the roads are smaller, underpaved, congested as people waited waited in line to go past a checkpoint for over an hour. Every single home had a water tank because Israel controls access to water. Buildings were erected without permits because 99% of all permits that Palestinians send out are rejected. And I remember on our way out from a malak, one of the big cities in the West Bank, there was this sign and it read, This road leads to a Palestinian village. Entrance for Israelis is dangerous. For Israelis who don't know and engage with Palestinians, how like scary and like disorienting would that sign feel, right? But as we the delegation stood there, a man in a red SUV kind of drove by and he said, The sign isn't true. We're lovely people. And it was as if there was John the Baptist in the desert, the one proclaiming that the kingdom of God was near, and no wall, no occupation, no propaganda could obstruct the view. And so when I came back, I wanted to do like two things. I wanted to tell the story of what I saw and of and how it impacted me in the hopes that it would help people recognize kind of where Zionism is baseline for culture within their lives. And it was Dr. Mitri Rahab, one of the people that we met, who said traditional media is occupied, and so we must use cultural tools to tell the story. And so I created that online series with the hopes that it would reach a million people. And now it's standing at over six million views. And it's ranged from topics of like, was there ever even a Palestine to loyalty and weapons and like the cost of liberation when our convenience is at stake. And today, like I try to tell the story of Palestine in every opportunity that I can as part of my anti-Zionist work within my context of church.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

The Reverend Dr. Kyunjun Christine Pei is professor of religion and women's and gender studies at Denison University. A Master of Divinity graduate from Yale Divinity School, Pei received her PhD from Union Theological Seminary in the city of New York. Trained as a social ethicist, she specializes in transnational feminist ethics, ethics of peace and war, spiritual activism, and Asian and Asian American feminist theologies. Many of her publications take U.S. military prostitution in South Korea as a critical site for producing feminist knowledge concerning militarized violence, faith-based popular resistance, and the theology of peace. Her emerging research is on Christian Zionism and solidarity with Palestine and South Korea. She has authored A Trans-Pacific Imagination of Theology, Ethics and Spiritual Activism from 2023, and co-edited Embodying Anti-Racist Christianity, also from 2023, and Searching for the Future in the Past, Renewing Feminist Theological Voices from 2024. Pei is also an Episcopal priest who canonically resides in the Diocese of Newark, New Jersey. So we're thrilled to have you with us, uh Doctor. In a 2024 article on reproductive justice and sexual ethics in the Episcopal Church, you begin the article by discussing the quote cognitive dissonance required to be able to witness the atrocities in Gaza, yet continue to live life as normal, describing how you sat in your house in Ohio, unable to stop thinking about Jesus' words in Matthew 24 and the ongoing crisis in Gaza. So, as an ethicist, do you have an explanation or any insight to offer when it comes to the reality that many Christians are able to look away from the suffering of the Palestinian people?

SPEAKER_04 11:55

Thank you, Sophie, for a generous introduction. And um, Jelene, I can actually resonate with your experience. I had a I had the opportunity to visit Palestine back in 2012. I also signed up for Sabil delegation trip in past March. But unfortunately, because of war in Iran, the delegation trip um has been cancelled. So I actually am very jealous of um Jolene and Jessica, who recently visited Palestine and who eyewitnessed what was going on, especially during the genocide in Gaza. So I'm surprised by your research of my articles. And I didn't view cognitive disorders negatively there. When I began writing that article, Israel had launched a genocide war on Gaza, and it has been impossible for me to focus on writing, knowing that reproductive justice remains a luxury in Gaza, children are being killed and targeted, Palestinian women are in labor while their families are being killed, and churches and schools are being bombed. So I find it very difficult to reconcile my life in Midwestern suburban Ohio with the ongoing struggles of many lives in Palestine. So even though I've tried my best to show solidarity with the Palestinians, I've always felt that it was never quite enough. And many Christians have shared similar feelings. The term cognitive dishonest isn't meant to describe a mental health issue or pathology, but rather highlights the struggles many face in trying to live out God's love and justice. And despite this, we continue to care for our children, elderly, and communities near and far, focusing on daily life. And every day we choose lives that do not involve war, violence, or killing, and that choice is truly meaningful, like Jolene's participation in the BDS movement. And additionally, addressing the challenge of cognitive disorders helps us to combat political apathy and to overcome political numbness. We should continue to talk about Palestine as Jolene does, and listen to Palestinian stories and unite in our shared voice against genocide by reaching out to politicians. Cherishing our community of like-minded people is a meaningful step toward fostering peace and justice for all. In my chapter included in Theology After Gaza, I explore how we can use cognitive dishonest to overcome feelings of political numbness. I believe it's important not to ignore the cognitive and moral dishonest that we face on personal, social, and political levels. The Christian Zionists often interpret these scriptures to justify wars in Palestine, Lebanon, and Iran as part of God's end time plan. However, as a feminist emphasis, I wonder whether these so-called end times are truly written in the Bible, or if these apocalyptic passages might instead reflect human realities shaped by militarized violence. And many Christians just see time as linear from the moment God created the world to the end of it, and we live in between these two points. In this view, war and violence can be seen as ways to start something new. And inspired by transnational feminists M. Jackie Alexander, I see time more like a palimpsest where the past, present, and future are intertwined and shape each other. Our current suffering can help us better understand what came before and why it might come next. And at the same time, one group's past suffering can later be felt as present or future of another by another group. In that way, one group's experience of war and genocide can resonate with others across times and spaces. This shared understanding can build a stronger solidarity across different eras and places. In my work, I have used Koreans' collective memories of the Korean War to foster empathy for the suffering in Gaza and Palestine and to explain why Koreans should stand with Palestinians against genocide. What is more important is to interweave different stories of resistance to war and genocide across countries and generations in order to deepen our solidarity. As Christians, we carry the memories of Jesus, his suffering and resistance to Roman imperial rule closely with us. The concept of polypsistic time allows us to experience it as present and future too. So in this way, Christians can live with the memories of the Jesus event here and now, and more concretely, making it an ongoing part of our spiritual journey and struggles for justice.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Jessica's son, Shi Lei, is a second-generation economic settler immigrant and Chinese US American selenial from Northern Virginia. A Catholic convert, after 10 years of identifying with varying philosophies as an agnostic, she finds a dear sense of belonging in spaces of zealous, gospel-led advocacy and action for just peace and nonviolence. Christians for Free Palestine, the Pact Christi U.S. Young Adult Caucus, and Progressive Asian American Christians, PAAC, are her organizing homes. A graduate of the Virginia Tech College of Engineering, she had worked as a software engineer by day, local activist by life. In a few months, Jessica will begin postulancy with the Sisters of Providence of St. Mary of the Woods in Indiana. Jessica, you have been able to visit Palestine on delegations with Fosna and Sabil in 2022, 2024, and again in 2025. In an article that you wrote in January of 2025, you say, quote, it remains a privilege and a great honor for me to stand with Palestinians who have been facing billions of dollars of propaganda and lies to whitewash their destruction funded by my U.S. taxpayer dollars, unquote. Can you tell us about your experiences in Palestine and how you were able to start seeing and recognizing the US propaganda and lies that perpetuate violence towards Palestinians?

SPEAKER_00 19:45

Absolutely. Thank you, Dee. In order to begin recognizing the US propaganda around Palestine, first for me, I had to meet the right people. I think this is fairly common sometimes with child of immigrants, but growing up, any kind of activism was actively disavowed. There's a Chinese proverb that says the nail that sticks up gets hammered down. So I did not come to any real justice or political re-education after going through public schools, my K through 12 education until college, and I began really seeking that out. And it was eventually as a volunteer with the Bernie Sanders campaign in Virginia in 2020 that I got to meet my first Palestinian American activists. And for the first time as a young adult, I began making the connections between our quote-unquote domestic struggles here in the US with labor and education equity and women's rights and woman empowerment to the broader issues of militarism, the US military-industrial complex and empire. And I found out that Palestine was the one thing I couldn't talk about. So that was the one thing I decided I needed to talk about the most of all. And I credit the cause of Palestine to freeing me. And so it's been a joy to press on this since the Palestinian American activists in the 2020 Bernie Sanders campaign brought me to the cause. And I had the great honor of getting to go on a solidarity delegation with Sabiel about three times now, thanks to beautiful people in the network who make these delegations possible, and most of all, to the Palestinians on the ground who prove a love for neighbor and exhibit a samud that I can only dream of. In Palestine, you know, I see the greatest Christians of this generation to me. So, first of all, Seville is the ecumenical grassroots center for Palestinian liberation theology, rooted in the universal ethics. Of nonviolence, right? So in English, Sabiel, as one of its translations, can be roughly translated to the way, which is the name of Christianity in its very earliest days. So I go to Palestine to learn at the feet of Christ. I go to Palestine to learn from the world's masters of nonviolence, from Palestinians who demonstrate a commitment to the way that has been sharpened and tested under unfathomable daily oppression. They have gone through a type of testing that I will never comprehend, a trial and proof of their love of neighbor that I will never show. Because after 100 years of modern settled colonialism, ethnic cleansing, apartheid and genocide, Palestine remains the compass of the world. They are the Palestinian Muslim woman entrepreneur in Hebron who not only refuses to leave her land, but decides to open an affordable flatbread shop in the old city of Hebron or Alculio at prices that her community, not just tourists, can afford. They are the children in Ramullah who are terrified, but make the dangerous trek to school anyway, every day, because right now in April 2026, are the true children of Umar and Masafariata show us and stand for that education is a right for every child, including Palestinian children. They are the couple in Bethlehem who returned to Palestine in 2008, who walked away from elite professorships and six-figure incomes to donate their life savings and volunteer full-time to conserve the natural world and to liberate the world at the Palestine Institute for Biodiversity and Sustainability with Professor Mazin Kumzieh and Jesse Chang. They are the Gaozen teenagers who passed their high school matriculation exams on day 767 of the 2023 genocide committed by Israel and the United States.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

This is justice holy work that we do. And then I'm just like personally so glad that this is like a male de-centered episode here right now. So I'm just going to say that because I'm very excited by that. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Writing from the Korean context, Sung Gun Kim explains that Christianity in Korea worked in tandem with the people's hopes of preserving their traditions against Japanese rule. Koreans welcomed Protestantism for its religious creed, for its political, social, and cultural ideals and activities, and for the way it compensated for the loss of their country's nationhood. Meanwhile, in his dissertation completed at Fuller Theological Seminary, Qi Hui Huang identifies the birth of Chinese Christian Zionism in a vision revealed to the Chinese church leaders at the Jerusalem House of Prayer for All Nations conference, which was held in Israel in 2000, unquote, resulting in a particularly charismatic variety. In the South Asian context, specifically in India, we have witnessed a growing alliance between Hindutva or Hindu nationalist movements and Zionism, coupled with a strengthening of ties between the Indian and Israeli governments, which is in direct contrast to historic Indian sympathy for the Palestinian cause. Western missionary work has played a significant role in shaping these perspectives, such that, quote, many Indian Christians aligned themselves with Hindu nationalist support for Israel despite facing persecution from these same groups, unquote. So, to what extent do these admittedly broad brush descriptions reflect your understanding of how Christian Zionism manifests in these contexts? And how have Christian Zionists' beliefs impacted the immigrant communities that you are a part of?

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Christian Zionists' beliefs, which goes hand in hand with Christian nationalism, has greatly impacted the Chinese immigrant communities that I've been adjacent to while growing up. While I'm an adult convert to Christianity, I had relatives who were in a Catholic missionary group in Washington, D.C. And they totally adopted and embraced right wing sharing. A lot of Chinese immigrants, at least in the DC area, as you see sometimes with immigrants, is that they tend to overcorrect and try to be as American as they possibly can be. And right wing Christian nationalism has done a great job of selling itself, as this is what the US is. They think that being a good citizen means parroting Rush Limbaugh talking points and Sean Hennedy talking points and only watching Fox News. So I think the default for a lot of Catholic Chinese or Chinese Christian, Chinese Protestant communities in the DC area I've seen growing up is support for Israel, is support for militarism, is blind obedience to red, white, and blue. And that was really damaging, I think, for a lot of children of immigrants, and I think to the immigrants still themselves, who follow and kowtow to a kind of white supremacy that they will never be a part of, but they will never be included in, and that they are never welcomed into. So it remains a grief, really, I think for some of us in this next generation that are still unpacking this, places like the group of progressive Asian American Christians that is this intersection of being an Asian American Christian, of being progressive and pro-Palestine and for liberation from empire and queer affirming. There's those of us in PAC who are beginning to deconstruct what we were told in these rigid black and white beliefs because a genuine search for truth isn't really welcome in these groups. Conformity is obedience to the flag is being grateful for being born here or being taken here. There was this one great reflection of one person in PAC who talked about how they were carrying this grief about not getting to choose where they were born and away from the place where their face and their culture was the dominant, but at the same time not blaming our parents for making this decision to move here and or to immigrate here or to become settlers here themselves. So I think there's a lot of unpacking that's happening in the next generation. I see broadly in Chinese Christian communities this great guilt/slash attempt to be white, but they'll never be white. And so, as is well said by many Franz of Sibyl groups and other groups, that Christian Zionism is a foreign policy of Christian nationalism. So the default umbrella of being a right-wing Christian is to support Israel. And I think there's another topic, too, about not just for Asian Americans or Chinese Americans, or but to really unpack every time Israel is said on top of the pulpit in scripture, separating biblical Israel from the modern settler colonial state that we see in West Asia today in Palestine.

SPEAKER_04 30:50

Yeah, I focus more on I'm a first-generation Korean, so I focus more on the Korean context. Christian Zionism is rooted in dispensationalist eschatology. So in South Korea, it has developed alongside the country's complex political history. And in the late 19th century, European and American missionaries surely planted the initial seeds of Christian Zionism in Korea, especially among those who were influenced by dispensational teachings. And then during the 18th and 19th centuries, Korea faced significant political upheaval with natural disasters, famines, and corruption shaking the entire society. As the last kingdom on the Korean peninsula, the Jiu-Zan dynasty, approached its end, many Koreans started sharing millenarian dreams of a new, better world free from suffering. And this longing made dispensationalists as Catholics especially appealing to many Koreans. An Imperial Japan colonized Korea from 1910 to 1945, and during this period, Prestonism was seen as a respectable faith in Korea because many Western missionaries and Korean Protestant leaders played ethnic roles in Korea's fight for independence and invested in education for women, farmers, and working class people. However, due to the cruel colonial rule, as Sangun Kim already pointed out, a Koreanized Christian premillenarial hope began to develop, and some influential Korean first-tent leaders spoke passionately about Jesus' eminent return, which they believed would overthrow Imperial Japan and create a new kingdom on the Korean peninsula and eventually spreading the worldwide. So their apocalyptic visions provided hope amid suffering, predicting the fall of the Japanese Empire, although they didn't focus on Israel or Jewish people. And at that time, Korean Protestants saw themselves as a kind of second or new Israel, sharing familiarity with the Christian ideas of supersession. And the state of Israel entered Korean Protestants' political theology during the military dictator of Bak Jong-hee in the 1960s. In 1962, South Korea established diplomatic relations with Israel one year after Park seized power in Okudata. And Park used Israel as a model for anti-communism, patriotic ethno-nationalism, economic development, and military defense in South Korea's confrontation with North Korea. And he was especially impressed by Israel's victory in the 1967 Arab-Israeli War and eager to learn about Israel's military defense system and strategies for ethno-national unity. And Bakhtong Yi also actively engaged Korean evangelical leaders to foster a stronger bond with the United States. And then the U.S.-Korean Anti-Comist Evangelical Alliance during the Korean War in the early 1950s became much stronger throughout Park's administration. And then this alliance grew even more politically influential. And many evangelical leaders who supported Park Chong-he prayed for Korea to become like a second Israel and envisioned the reunification of North and South Korea as part of this dream. It became a real goal to strive for. By laying a political foundation for Christian Zionism, Park helped this idea become deeply rooted in Korean culture, politics, and society. And now Korean Christian Zionists see themselves as uniquely chosen by God, along with the United States and Israel, to prepare for Jesus' second coming. They feel a special calling to bring the gospel back to Jerusalem. And Jesse, you already quoted this the conference in Jerusalem. Actually, this back to Jerusalem movement began in China, but then Korean Christian Zionists embraced it as if it were like a Korean idea. And in their imagination, Korea is geographically located between East and West, and gospel studied in Jerusalem, and then it was delivered to Europe and then Americas, and then now it's moving to East Asia, particularly Korea. Within this framework of Back to Jerusalem and Korean evangelical groups are also among the top senders of Christian missionaries to non-Christian countries, especially in Central Asia and the Middle East, including Israel. I think Jolene is familiar with Korean missionaries in India. And additionally, these Korean Christian Zionists believe that the return of Jews to Israel will lead to the reunification of North and South Korea and the spiritual restoration of North Korea, which was once a key focus of Western Christian missions in East Asia. Building on these beliefs, Korean Christian Zionists have reinterpreted the Korean history in relation to modern Israeli history. So, such as both South Korea and Israel were founded in 1948, thanks to God's intervention. And Israel generally sent 100,000 US dollars to South Korea during the Korean War. And around 4,000 Jewish soldiers bravely fought for South Korea during that time. But actually, these 4,000 Jewish soldiers is a kind of, there is no substantial historical record. I think that these soldiers usually belong to the British and American army. So they didn't belong to Israel. So in their imagination, um, Korea, but in Christian Zionist imagination, Korea and Israel are deeply connected. So the Korean Israel Bible Institute, a Christian Zionist organization, opened the Holocaust Museum in 2025 near the border with North Korea. And this museum not only commemorates the Holocaust, but also honors the Jewish sacrifices made during the Korean War and highlights the often overlooked historical bond between Jews and Koreans. Even they try to find out some genetic connection between Koreans and Jews. So since Korean Christian Zionism has evolved around God's chosen nation, it is theologically imperative to challenge the parochial and tribal understanding of the so-called chosen people. And as Jesse already flinged it out, Christian Zionism in Korea also fosters and strengthens Christian nationalism. So in that way, progressive Korean Christians combat Christian Zionism and Christian nationalism and far-right politics at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

When we talk about India in the context of nationalism and Zionism, we really have to name that we're not just talking about theology that sets the stage, but it's about identity politics at scale. The alignment between Hindutva and Zionism isn't accidental. And I don't necessarily see it as a primary consequence of Western Christian evangelism. I think in many ways it's rooted in a shared way of imagining nationhood, not as a plural community in the midst of diversity, but a nation that is envisioned itself as almost exclusively to one people. In Hindutva, that is a Hindu country. And in Zionism, that is a Jewish state. And in both cases, the Muslim figure becomes the center, the figure of threat, the one who is perpetually a suspect, already out of place. And so when people describe this like new and profound alliance between Hindutva and Zionism, between India and Israel, I think that's right, right? But in it's deeper than just diplomacy. It's deeper than just politics. It's a movement that's recognizing itself in one another across the borders, sharing not just strategy, but also this like profound imagination. Oh, like you've successfully displaced Palestinians and established a state, and the world is okay with it. Maybe we can do that to Muslims and tribals and Christians. It's classic settler colonialism that's built on like loyalty to nationhood. And that has, in many ways, like reshaped India's posture in very concrete ways. A country that once stood firmly with Palestine, grounded in its own anti-colonial struggle, has become one of Israel's closest partners, including being one of Israel's largest arms buyers. And I think identity politics is important to name because it doesn't just live in policy in the ways that like laws are passed, but it lives in this like longing to gather people in fear. Like you're gonna lose your nation, you're gonna lose your identity if you don't support Israel. And here's an example of how it's happened. So now you have to support Hindutwa. And that's where I think things get really complicated for Indian Christians, both within India and like in the diaspora. On one hand, there is this theological inheritance often shaped by evangelical Western missionary frameworks that centers Israel in a way that is like sacred and unquestionable. Like this is the chosen people, the chosen land. But on the other hand, there's this political environment that's shaped by Hindutva, where demonstrating alignment with the narrative of Hindutva feels like aligning yourself with power or at least like visibility. Because Christians are a minority in India. They're like 3%. And I think that feels like a great loss to those who are used to experiencing Christianity as empire and all the privileges that come with having a religion that is like empirically structured. And so Christian Zionism in that space can become a kind of a kind of bridge, right? A way of saying we belong to the bridge between being a Christian who's rooted in justice and liberation and power. We belong here too. We're on the right side of history. Include us in your power. And I think that's the tension that I find really hard to shake. And I feel like many Christians who are questioning the ways of Zionism are also struggling to shake. Is that that bridge is built on an identity logic that doesn't actually make room for them. Right? And we saw this happen in the US recently when Trump called Indians gangsters with laptops. You cannot earn your way into the good graces of fascists and xenophobes. You cannot earn your way into being approved by an empire when the empire actively chooses not to include you. And that's where I think we need to be really honest about the cost of alignment. There's this another layer to this that I'd like only recently learned about. And I think it matters for how we understand the cultural ecosystem around like Zionism as it makes us relivity in India. Every year, about 40,000 Israelis, many of them having just completed military service, right? So young Israelis travel to India, especially to places like Goa and the Himalayan regions, and not just for tourism, but it's become a sort of decompression space. And what we've seen are these microcommunities emerging with Hebrew signage, which was Israeli-owned cafes, Israeli-only spaces, spaces and pockets that are culturally and socially exclusive within India. And I think when it happens in a place like India, a country with its own long and painful history of colonialism and racial hierarchy, we're not just talking about now solidarity between states. It's not now Hinduism and Zionism or India and Israel. It's recreating the very colonial system that we were delivered from in our independence in 1947. So identity politics doesn't hold up, especially when it comes to like India and Indians in the diaspora. When you're a minority relying on pluralism, relying on a positive outlook to diversity, the idea of exclusivity, I think, can cost us more. And it costs our family in the diaspora and our families like in India more. But I think people are more likely to recognize that cost when they hear like a counter narrative, when they are, when their propaganda, the science propaganda is confronted. The narratives of Palestinians. That echo the narratives of those who have been victims of colonization. I think that's where like a desire for a bridge of faith and power like starts to disintegrate. So the impact of Christian Zionism in like the diaspora community, I think isn't just like belief. It is a tension between faith and loyalty. And that tension, this time, I feel like is a fragile tension.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

I think that like Jessica was hitting on something that I think about a lot, which is this what it's like to be reared out of the place where your natural native identity would have been. And I think it's very interesting the intersection here between immigrant communities and people who are adopted. And as somebody who is adopted, like it's we always have these interesting conversations about like what it means to be ripped out of your like natural environment and raised in a context that's different. And I'm a lot of it gets even wilder and more confusing when you are an adopt, an international adoptee, when you are like somebody who is coming from not only your your biological ties are being severed, but also your like cultural and uh ethnic heritage ties are also being ripped apart. And I think that um it's it's just it made me think about how hard it is then to like argue with people when their beliefs are so ingrained in like their understanding of who they are as a person. And I think that this is the conversation that we're, you know, having here is that it's it's so it's much easier to discuss with somebody, you know, on the basis of factual, scientifically proven um areas of understanding and knowledge. But when you come to like belief patterns and belief systems, it's much more difficult to like have these conversations with people when you're trying to like, well, when they feel like you're ripping apart their entire sense of self. Um, and so I could probably go on for forever, but this conversation that we've been having leads us like real well into this next question that we have here, which is that the uh landmark book called an Asian American Theology of Liberation by Wang Tianan, in it, the reader learns that while Black, Latin American, and white feminist theologies of liberation are able to point to texts that mark the inauguration of new ways of doing theology beyond the white Western male norm, such as James Cohn's Black Theology and Black Power text, Gustavo Gutierrez's Theology de la Liberation text, and then Mary Daly's Beyond God the Father. The concurrent but informal reader, Ameri Asian Theology of Liberation, that was published in 1973, was not followed by a similar landmark publication that inspired later generations of Asian American theologies, unquote. This sentiment is followed up by a striking statement, quote, Asian American theology, as it stands, is ill-equipped to critique and interpret the structural and epistemic violence that are being dealt, nor the institutional and cultural frameworks that have cultivated the present crisis, unquote. Now, my Asian American friends have often described to me the experience of being seen as the model minority in Western contexts, a harmful stereotype portraying Asian Americans as inherently studious, hardworking, and successful, often disregarding the vast diversity and socioeconomic disparities within the community. So I'm curious to hear how each of you think about liberation theology within your own social locations and how this harmful stereotype of the model minority has or hasn't impacted theological scholarship in Asian communities. And Gerilyn, we'll start with you.

SPEAKER_03 48:56

That's such a good question. I think the perceived absence of a single landmark text in Asian or Asian American theology isn't an academic gap. It reflects something deeper about how Asian communities have been positioned in Western contexts. Because when you cast, when you're cast as the model minority, you're not expected to protest or to disrupt. And therefore, you're certainly not expected to produce a theology of liberation. Because what are you being liberated from? And I think that stereotype does like real theological work. It disciplines in communities into respectability. It rewards proximity to whiteness. I remember like a couple of years ago, I had a comment left on one of my videos that said, you look like a white woman in blackface. And I sat with that for a very long time. And I still wonder like, was this a black hand black-handed compliment rooted in like misogyny and racism? Of course. So I wonder if you saw like this person who holds characteristics of whiteness but with dark skin and couldn't make sense of that in a way that wasn't like racist and misogynistic. So when we say Asian American theology can be ill-equipped to critique structural violence, I don't see that as a failure of Asian theologians at all. I think that's a reflection of the conditions under which the theology had to emerge, particularly in the West. And as part of that is precisely because of the model minority myth. It obscures suffering, it fragments solidarity, and it makes it harder to build the kind of collective consciousness that liberation theology depends on. And so, like, let me locate myself in this conversation for a moment. As a dark-skinned Indian woman, I don't get to inhabit the model minority myth in a really straightforward way. I'm close enough to be shaped by it, but I'm not close enough to be protected by it. Colorism, caste echoes, the radicalization and diaspora all complicate that narrative of the model minority. And that's where I think I want to gently push back on this idea that Asian theology hasn't produced liberative frameworks because it's not entirely true. Traditions like Minjan theology in Korea and delete theology in India have for decades been doing this work precisely. Mingian theology emerges out of the struggles of ordinary people, the masses under political oppression, insisting that God is found in suffering and resilience, resistance. And delete theology is shaped by the lived realities of caste oppression. And it names God as being in solidarity with those pushed to the bottom of the social order. And it draws deeply on the work and the legacy in figures like Dr. B. R. Ambedkar. And so these aren't like marginal footnotes in the grand work of liberation theology. They are robust and contextually grounded theologies of liberation. And they've often been sidelined in Western academic and ecclesial spaces. And that marginalization, I think, mirrors the very dynamic that we're naming, like of model minority. Yes, you do this really good work, but it's not central enough for us to really engage with it in ways that will like invite us to change or reconsider the way we live in this world. And because the model minority myth allows, I think, Asian communities sometimes to distance ourselves from other racialized struggles while still benefiting from the system that harms us, it's easier to allow, like, allow the West to decenter Asian liberation theologies. I think is one of the large things that's happening in Asian communities in the solidarity with Palestine. It's just distance yourself just far enough where you it matters, but it doesn't cost us anything. But I see like the younger generations of Asian and the diasporic Christians asking much harder questions and like really challenging themselves and relating with these conversations, not just about how we've been oppressed, but about how we've been shaped by the systems that reward silence in proximity to power and how that's no longer the standard to strive for.

SPEAKER_04 53:04

Yeah, um I agree with Jolene and also I appreciate Wangian N's perspective, but I also think his understanding of Asian American liberation theology is narrow. And Asian American liberation theology, really it thrives on community efforts and shared work, often shining brightest in edited volumes. So I'd like to highlight Marcella Arto's rise point. The Latin American liberation theology has sometimes been shaped by the market trends. As Jolene already mentioned, this Western understanding of theology and Western consumers of theology sometimes like shape and promote what kind of books should be promoted. If you think about the diversity, the incredible diversity among Asian Americans and their wide range of experiences, not having a single landmark work isn't necessarily a problem. I also want to generally disagree with his view that Asian American theology, as it stands, is ill-equipped to critique and interpret the structure and epistemic violence that are being dealt, nor the institutional and cultural frameworks that have cultivated the present crisis. I'm actually surprised by this quote. Many Asian American theologians, especially feminist voices, have offered vital insights to critique and understand systemic violence and epistemic violence. Because our work is radically interdisciplinary, transnational, cross-culture, and interfaith, Asian American theology might not always focus on traditional Christian symbols, rituals, or debates. That does not mean that we don't do theology, we do theology. So I think Wong might be working from a limited idea of what Christian, Asian American theology is. For many Koreans, Jews are seen as a modern minority, admired for their success in academics and business. The Korean Christian Zionists highlight Torah study at homes as the core of Jewish education, so they try to popularize the Bible study as to stimulate Korean children intellectually. So for example, the Shema Institute, a Christian Zionist organization that studied in the Los Angeles Korean American community and now has offices in South Korea, has organized numerous training programs for church leaders and Christian parents who are interested in learning about Jewish leadership styles and raising successful children. However, it's critical to note that Shema's educational approach reflects very controversial views as it can be quite heteropatriarchal, homophobic, and Islamophobic, driven by a strong desire to see Koreans as God's chosen people, much like Jews. Basically, their message is simple. If we want to remain as God's chosen people, you have to conform to heteropatriarchal moral values written in Torah and the Christian Bible. So the idea of a modern minority is often linked to the concept of a chosen people. So it seems that South Korea might have looked more into Jewish education than any other countries. In the early 2000s, the Korean Ministry of Education studied Israel's gifted education system and benchmark it. Additionally, the Fellowship Korea, a Christian Zionist organization connected to the US-based international fellowship between Christians and Jews, played a key role in establishing a research center for Israeli education at Seoul National University in 2024. So the modern Binur Rimit, intertwined with Christian Zionism and Violet Semitism, invites us Christians to thoughtfully consider the purpose and value of education. In that way, we can overcome the modern minority myth at least a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 59:52

When it comes to the model minority myth impacting theological scholarship in Asian communities, I must say that I am not a scholar or a theologian, but I can at least speak a little bit to how the model minority myth is playing out in my life and how as a young adult, I am still unpacking that. Model minority myth is situated within white supremacy, and Asian Americans are unique among people of color in they are the sole ethnicity that believes that their oppression does not matter or is not a factor. And I think part of the only reason that I have not delved as deeply into unpacking what it is to be an Asian American is that internalized, oh, my struggle does not matter as much as the other people of color, and that's where I've dedicated most of my scholarship. So I feel like there is so much work left for me to do, and that's something I'm still actively unpacking. I had heard more about triangulation before between whites, blacks, and Asians, and understanding that it's really not as much triangulation as it is existing within white supremacy. What is a model minority of, what is the model, white supremacy, and the overall flattening of Asian people as either overly robotic or the oversexualization of Asian people as well, like these hyper-extremes that do not allow for real humanization. And of course, that Asian Americans are not a monolith either. And what is acceptable in some places, or what does being Asian look like or is supposed to look like, whether it's in academia, whether it's in church, whether it's as a pastor or as a pastor's kid, I think these are things I'm still actively unpacking.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:48

I wouldn't discredit yourself. I think that we are decolonial here in this space. And so your lived experience and what you bring to the table is just as significant. Even if you don't hold the titles of scholar or, you know, academic or theologian, because I think that that's part of the work we're doing here is trying to push against this like white ivory tower understanding of what is knowledge and who bears knowledge. And so don't minimize the lived reality that you have, because it's just it is equally as valuable.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:37

Wait, can I just add one one one comment? Because just reminds me of very like two important things. Because assimilation was uh like a culture and epistemic violence that many Asian Americans have experienced. And then the modern minority league cannot be understood properly how the epistemic imperialist culture of violence tries to like violently assimilate Asians with the so-called mainstream American culture. So in that way, like how to even like how to think about modern minority is a form of resistance. It can be a form of resistance. And then the two mechanisms of assimilations um that Asian Americans mostly experience are military service and education slash efficient nationalism. So the through the military service, a lot of Asian Americans try to prove that they are loyal citizens of this country. And why should Asian Americans prove our value through this military service? And then some of them will maybe send to Iran, or many of them have sent to Afghanistan and Iraq, and they have been part of these US imperial wars. And then the Christian nationalism is often inculcated through the American public education system. They are not at Christian heart, but still like a nationalism can be fostered through the American public education system. And then Asian Americans uh feel pressured to prove their loyalty to the United States by putting on the strongest nationalist ideas. And then usually, like previously, Christianity, especially Protestantism, was a tool for Asian Americans to be fully assimilated with American culture. And yet full assimilation is always impossible. And then now the like I think like the Asian Americans can be vulnerable to Christian nationalism because Protestantism and the nationalism have been traditionally two epistemic like mechanisms that have forcefully um assimilated Asian immigrants and their children and Asian Americans with the so-called mainstream American culture. So Jessica, remind me of these many like a complex culture political history that Asian American communities have experienced.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:18

I truly think deference politics is gonna be the death of liberation movements. And for, you know, if you don't know what deference politics are, this is like if I'm going into a room in the movement, I must defer my my wisdom, my position, my thinking to the most oppressed person in the room. Right. And I think that this just I've seen it time and time again, where there's so much richness and learning from, you know, I've had the gift of having Asian American feminist theologians as like seminary faculty, but not everybody has had that. So I have a at least some of a grasp of the theological work that's happening in the academy and that. That respect. But like there's so much richness in what is happening in Asian and Asian American communities that can speak so well to tools and effective strategies that work to combat systems of oppression. And then sometimes I feel like those voices are often silenced because of people feeling like, well, they're not the worst off. So therefore, because they're not the worst off, they have nothing to offer.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:32

Coming at it from a different context, our listeners probably know I come from a very conservative, very white Christian Zionist background and have had a very long process of, you know, I guess deconstruction, we might call it. But these narratives, these stories are so essential because I don't know how many times I have heard firsthand people arguing against, quote, why are the blacks complaining? Look at the Asians and how well they're doing. So it's not our problem as people of a specific racial class background with privilege. They're doing great. So why aren't these guys doing great? It must be on them, not on us. And I don't know how many times that case gets made purely based on the usage of the model minority myth very, very cynically and violently. So thank you for these stories. They are essential. And you know, bring it back to Palestinians and Palestinian thinkers, Said and Orientalism and the collapsing of the Asian experience through a Western lens, even the very framing of our own episode, Asian and Asian American theology, and the vast diversity that is the three of you represent. And when Gerilyn, you mentioned, like, for decades, you know, the Dalit theologians have been doing this very thing. And so maybe there's not this an overarching Asian American Theologies of Liberation book, but there certainly is all of this work being done in context. So we've heard from each of you your personal stories, and then we have delved into some of the thinking and literature surrounding Christian Zionism in Asian and Asian American communities. Now I want to look at moving forward, moving towards action. So we're here, we've been talking about the influence of Christian Zionism within Asian and Asian American communities. I'm wondering, as Christine, as you invoked in a panel event held last fall, which focused on Mitri Rahib's theology after Gaza, does the church survive? Or what can people do, or what does the church need to do in order to retain relevancy in these moments? Or perhaps a better way of phrasing might be to regain the legitimacy of its prophetic voice.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:05

Yeah, I raised the question um because I was very depressed at the time, and because genocide in Gaza was really documented, most documented genocide, and yet I feel very seeing how genocide is ongoing. So whether I have a following hope in the church, yeah, I'm trying to find hope and prophetic voice, and that's how I can um ground myself. So is Christianity gonna survive? I think so. Christianity will survive and continue to thrive. However, as Kairos Palestine challenges all Christians, we have to discern what kind of Christianity we want to renew and what kind of God we want to follow. And Kairos Palestine offers us a meaningful response. We are called to embody God's peace and justice for everyone, embracing nonviolence as a core way of living. And in response to Palestinian Christians' heartfelt call for discernment and action, we as Christians in Asia and in America should consider what risk we are ready to embrace and how we can stay true to our integrity. So I have gained valuable insights from young American Jewish and Palestinian activists involved in encampments and from many Christians coming together for free Palestine. So they stay true to their principles by resisting cooperation with capitalist and colonialist warmongers, risking their comfort and job security today and in the future, all to stand in solidarity with the Palestinians and other oppressed communities across the globe. I'm not suggesting everyone should go out and protest against US and Israeli politicians who are responsible for the situations and genocide in Gaza and the Middle East. So instead, we can do where we stand from and we can do it with courage and integrity. So the church as a community can help foster peace activism as a form of spiritual activism, and we cannot resist militarized violence individually. So the community building is essential. We are broken by militarized violence, economic violence, genocide, and gender-based violence. But we are healing ourselves while healing the world. And there is no separation between healing ourselves and healing the world. And Christian Zionism tends to grow stronger when people struggle to find hope in their lives. So feminist theologians Rita Nakishima Brock and Rebecca Parker remind us that early Christians viewed this world as a paradise created by God. And to live in this paradise, early Christians took ethical responsibility for each other through love. And seen through early Christians' worldviews, earthly life is the space where we can develop wisdom and grasp the deeper mysteries of God. And this wisdom helps us appreciate life's beauty and face its challenges at the same time. I feel that Christian Zionists often lose sight of their responsibility to live in this world as a paradise and to work through life's difficulties. Because of this, Christian Zionism can sometimes lead to political fascism and conflict. The church's everyday efforts should be focused on helping Christians reconnect with life in paradise, and church can survive only in paradise. The church can play a positive role in leading discussions on important social issues like anti-Christian Zionism and decolonial studies, perhaps through Craig or Bible study groups, and more active and responsible participation in civil society can further help strengthen our democracy. But remember, the goal isn't to dominate politics through Christian faith, but to genuinely witness and support justice. So I would like to share one example. So Kim Aion is a young peace activist and the first Korean to sail with the Gaza flotilla in March 2025. Recognizing Kim's extensive involvement in anti-war activism on Jeju Island of Korea and in Gaza, the Human Rights Center has highlighted how the Korean Church and civil society can respond responsibly to the suffering of Palestinians and others around the world. So the Korean Church's human rights award reminds us that the church has the power to witness and support peace activism against settler colonialism and imperialism. The church should discern.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:54

When it comes to asking how does a church survive in this theology after Gaza and what can people do for the church to retain relevancy, I have to first turn to this quote from Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., which has essentially become the mission statement of my life, really. And it says this the church must be reminded that it is not the master or the servant of the state, but rather the church is the conscience of the state. It must be the guide and critic and never its tool. If the church does not recapture its prophetic zeal, it will become an irrelevant social club without moral or spiritual authority. If the church does not participate actively in the struggle for peace and for economic and racial justice, it will forfeit the loyalty of millions and cause people everywhere to say that it has atrophied its will. But if the church will free itself from the shackles of a deadening status quo and recovering its great historic mission and will speak and act fearlessly and insistently in terms of justice and peace, it will enkindle the imagination of mankind and fire the souls of men, imbuing them with a glowing and ardent love for truth, justice, and peace. People far and near would know the church as a great fellowship of love that provides light and bread for lonely travelers at midnight. When I first heard this statement from MOK, I was struck so much by the portion that says, if the church does not recapture prophetic seal, it will become an irrelevant social club without moral or spiritual authority because that's what I see everywhere.

unknown 1:17:01

St.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:01

Oscar Romero talks about that a gospel that does not touch the systemic sin of society, what kind of gospel is that? Or a church that enjoys all the human honors and things of this earth is not a living faith at all. Also, though, as Fred Rogers said, look for the helpers. And there are many when it comes to faith-based activism against empire and for free Palestine in an intersectional liberatory way. So I called Christians for a free Palestine, one of my organizing homes that emerged in early 2024. And I proudly continue to do so. Our liberation is bound up together. And I highly encourage folks to check out Christians for a Free Palestine for ways you can take action right now. We have weekly Picket and Praise Wednesdays at noon Eastern for just 30 minutes, where we do a spiritual practice together, we get some updates in Palestine, and then we all take action every week. I'm also been recently organizing the Catholic Caucus of Christians for Free Palestine. So if folks have friends in the Catholic faith who identify or identify that way themselves or want to accompany the Free Palestine movement within the Catholic Church, you are more than welcome in our group. So I'll be sure to provide the link tree to our caucus in the notes. And one of the promising efforts that we've been supporting is the global network called Priests Against Genocide. It is a growing statement of conscience among Catholic clergy standing in solidarity with the Palestinian people. It was launched in September 2025. And since then, over 2,200 priests from 56 countries have signed. And this includes two cardinals and 23 archbishops and bishops. So there are over 150 U.S. priests signed on, and we'd love to see that effort grow as a way to start conversations in addition within the Catholic caucus of Christians for Free Palestine. We have introductory letters to parishes, schools, and religious orders. We've linked, of course, the excellent Kairos Palestine II congregational study guide that I've been going through with a group of folks at my parish and that many around the country studied this year during Easter 2026. Sabile also has made available their own contemporary way of the cross or a Palestinian Stations of the Cross. This is one way to invite your faith community into a prayerful way to experience, try to understand deeper into the obvious theological connections between Jesus with the marginalized and Jesus the liberator. Our caucus has also hosted a Palestine immersion event at the oldest Black Catholic Church in Washington, D.C. on February this year. And we'd love to see that event replicated at different churches of any denomination. This follows the first Gaza immersion experience at the Rock Spring United Church of Christ in Arlington, Virginia, back in September 2025. And this effort and this initiative came from what the Quakers had done hundreds of years ago in anti-slavery efforts in the United States to try to put people and immerse people into what it was like. In more recent years, this was picked up by Muslim mosques in the area to encourage people and drive solidarity with Palestine. And we'd love to see more Christians host that at their church as well. There's also a wonderful initiative called Apartheid Free Communities by the American Friends Service Community. So to invite your parish and congregation to consider being apartheid free is also another excellent way to at least begin the conversation. So I would also encourage people to go and see and then go and tell. Go on a trip with Sabiel to Palestine. My life was forever changed. To me, I'm learning from the hope of the world. To me, Sabil is a movement that the world needs, not simply the other way around. How they have lived their faith, how they have honed themselves, their mastery of creative stubbornness, aka nonviolence, aka Palestinian Samood, is a voice and message that we all need in these times and in every time. And I'll close here with a little quote from the Jesuit Dan Barrigan, where he says that I know the prophetic vision is not popular today in some spiritual circles, but our task is not to be popular or to be seen as having an impact, but to speak the deepest truths that we know. We need to live our lives in accord with the deepest truths we know, even if doing so does not produce immediate results in the world. The good is to be done because it is good, not necessarily because it goes somewhere in a way that we can see, in a way that we can understand right now. I believe the world is healed and changed one heart at a time. And I think Palestinian liberation theology lights the way for all of us in this regard.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:39

So Dr. Dmitri Rahab is asking a question that the global church, I think, is trying really hard not to answer. Because the claims that are made in theology after Gaza that aren't subtle claims. And Gaza becomes, as he puts it, and as Dr. Christine said earlier, a kind of moral compass, a place where the world is forced to confront what our theologies, what we believe about God, are actually doing in the real world. And what is exposed is uncomfortable, that our theology has not just failed to stop violence, but it's been used to justify it, and all of us have been complicit in it. And so we ask, does the church survive? I don't know if that's the question about institutional continuity. Because historically, churches survive awful seasons. We've survived empire, we've survived colonialism, we've survived our own contradictions and our own grave failings. I think the deeper question is, should this church survive in its current form? Dr. Rahab is so clear that what's happening in Gaza is not just a humanitarian crisis, right? It's a theological crisis, one that threatens the presence of Christianity in the land where Christianity was born, where Palestinian Christian communities are literally disappearing under the weight of violence. And so the issue isn't survival, it is legitimacy of the church. And I think that lands especially sharply when we talk about Christian Zionism in Asia and American contexts. Because the tension is our communities have inherited a theology that centers Israel as sacred. And Palestinian liberation theologians more broadly are asking us to see how those same theological frameworks can be harmful when they're detached from the realities of Palestine. How do you say God cares about the marginalized and only see Israel as a victim of marginalization? Or only see like the West as a victim of marginalization? How does the church need to like regain its prophetic voice to regain its sense of legitimacy? And I think first and foremost, we need to start telling the truth about our own theology. Steve Biko, one of my favorite theologians from South Africa, said, or theologi- I don't know if he was a theologian, activist from South Africa said, the most potent weapon is in the hands of the oppressor, is the mind of the oppressed. And that insight, I think, lands uncomfortably close to the church's current moment. If our theology can be used to sanctify violence or excuse the suffering of Palestinians, then it's no longer neutral. It's participating in the distortion of consciousness. In that sense, recovering a prophetic voice is not just about speaking differently, but about undergoing a kind of theological decolonization, especially being like an Anglican part of one of the ancient colonial churches, where the church refuses any understanding of God that requires the silencing of oppressed voices and the erasure of oppressed voices. And I think the second, the church needs to recenter the voices that it ignored. We cannot claim a prophetic voice if we're unwilling to listen to the people most impacted. For many Christians, that cost of centering Palestine is real. In many ways, it means questioning like inherited missionary theologians. It means disrupting political alignment, naming injustice when it threatens our own sense of safety. If our theology only works when it's aligned to power, then it was never prophetic to begin with. I think it is Dr. Rahab who said one of the most haunting questions coming out of the conversations is whether we can still speak of a God of liberation in the aftermath of Gaza when God's name has been invoked in the midst of such violence. I don't think the answer is to abandon God, but to reveal God in a world where justice and liberation and hope are the baseline. So, like something really cool recently that's coming up in the next few weeks is I'm hosting a bird watching event in Scarborough, and it's bird watching for Palestine. And it came out of this one poem by the Palestinian poet Marwan McCool. In order for me to write poetry that isn't political, I must listen to the birds. And in order to hear the birds, the war planes must be silent. Does the church survive? Yes. But not if it's unchanged. The church needs to understand that the goal of the church isn't survival, it's faithfulness.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:14

Thank you so much. And I wanted to point out to those maybe who aren't watching this episode but listening to it, that the artwork behind you of Jesus flipping over the tables from I know it's the Naked Pastor, I'm forgetting his name, the artist's name.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:31

David, I see. I don't I don't know how to pronounce it, but David is his first name, and Naked Pastor is the artist.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:38

I just love being able to see that Jesus flipping over the tables is the beautiful, uh, and then also the other artwork there too. On on the topic of backgrounds, those of you who can see, I am here in front of, digitally in front of Raushea Rach in Beirut. And I just wanted to highlight what Lebanon is going through right now. We talk about Palestine, but I have I had the I was blessed to have lived seven years of my life in Lebanon. And that's what I was doing before I came back to the US and actually started with Fosna. And my heart is just broken again and again uh right now, thinking of all my friends and loved ones in Lebanon. And so that's why I have Rao Sheirah here. For those who uh are able to see the podcast right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:24

I think this conversation brings home the intersectional nature of all of these um systems of violence that wreak havoc and harm across the globe. So we are keeping all people, uh especially those in the Swana region who are experiencing things most heavily right now. But I just want to say again, thank you. Thank you all so much for being here, um, for giving of your time and expertise to this very important and incredibly necessary conversation that we've had today. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in today. We will be back next time to talk about the ways in which the media industry promotes Christian Zionist perspectives that reify a dangerous data squirrel that leads to the continued dehumanization of the Palestinian people.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:23

Our original music, The Path Forward, was written and produced by Carl St. Lucy and Danny Fry, featuring sampled speech from Reverend Dr. Munter Isaac. ISCZ is a project of Friends of Seville North America, a nonprofit Christian ecumenical organization seeking justice and peace in the Holy Land through education, advocacy, and nonviolent action. Bad Theology Busted depends on generous contributions from our listeners. To learn more about ISCZ and to donate to our work, please visit us at study ChristianZionism.org. Until next time, thank you so much.